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THE TWILIGHT ZONE- A forum to discuss topics related to the work of Carlos Castaneda - |
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ZVM
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Post subject: The double again Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 15:50 |
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| fledgeling |
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 15:32 Posts: 107 Location: Russia, knock three times
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Hi Abe,
Was looking for some stuff in the net the other day and absolutely accidentally alighted on an old post in the NagNet archive. Concerning this "CC double" matter. It's interesting that this post was written more then two years before you posted your twin story there on old NagNet. Have you read it? Here is the post [discussing Greg's pictures of CC]:
Quote: synchrojoe drifter posted 10-17-2000 12:29 --------------------------------------------
Take a looksee at that picture again. and look at the two people behind 'him', look at the way they look away as if to laugh, or conceal the shine in their eyes as to what happened in that moment. Intelligence has reported what happened. 'its evolution baby'.... anyhew...toward the last couple years of his public appearances, cc took a substantial leave from workshops and lectures. Yes generousity was his mask for he gave away and dissemenated the Teachings as best he could to the masses(this was never to be done in the past), generousity was his mask, and he delivered keys of knowledge to those that would hear it, at a time when humankind and earth kind are gonna need it.
Anyhew, during this leave, carlos met a man who totally looked like him, and although he led an average life of sorts, he was quite intellectual and well grounded with reason. On their second interaction, the man revealed to carlos that he was dying of liver cancer. Although chucky could empathize, his place of no pity was burning bright and his mask of sheer ruthlessness was delivered...
...as most of us know and those SA types would bitch about is that carlos was a millionare... and this man he met was dying, and had accepted it, he was at peace, and only cared to have fun while it lasted.
Spirit acts and delivers in the weirdest places. Carlos...having nothing wrong with him, then gave the man the opportunity...switch identities. Carlos kept some stash for himself, but gave this other man his money, and his identity at a time near the end of this other mans life. Hell why not the other man said...ive got nothing left to lose anyway...and why not live it large, and all he had to do was portray him at workshops n shit, live at his house and have all the care a dying man may need. Since this other man loved poetry readings and was a true beatnik actor at heart, he was overjoyed at this prospect, within the next few days they went over the details and mannerisms, and at the next public appearance it was the other man posing as carlos and nothing missed a beat until this mans heart did. All the while carlos lived in florida, until near the end of the other mans life, upon which carlos stowed away up in canada for 6 months.
The reason he let this happen is to test all the would be or wannabee warriors' ruthlessness. Would it really matter if he died?? Can you ..by yourselves pit the average world against the sorcerers world??
Now obviously theres been a schism. Complainers and Doers.
The complainers have even gone so far as to say the witches Flo tai and carol have committed suicide...HA This is not so. After the shit hit the fan and the paper mess was cleared up, they all rendevoused back in arizona and began to travel the world. With interludes back at sonora. They are unrecognizable and are true stealth agents to the extreme. Wonderful and still Very Intense Beings.
So they got the pics and video of a dying man...everybody dies...how far will you go to accept death as your advisor. The day the other man died was the day carlos died to the world. Except of course those he runs into in the world now while incognito....
just thought id let yall know whats what
SOURCE
(one from the bottom of the page)
BTW, who is this 'synchrojoe'? Hasn't he/she posted on SR or elsewhere afterwards? At least the formatting style resembles a bit that of 'Five Pack'...
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Blackbeard
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Post subject: Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 15:55 |
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| I don't Teach, but I do drink a lot |
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:50 Posts: 4798 Location: The NeverNeverlands
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Thank you very much for posting this, ZVM!
No, I did not know of the story... I didn't even have a computer back then.
But now I understand Jeremy Donovan's reaction to my story: he thought I was the same guy as the one who posted this text. He told me about some guy on alt.castaneda or alt.dreams or something who claimed to have met a Castaneda substitute.
Hey, gimme a minute, and I will try to get that post by Jeremy on SR (I have to use a proxy server for Wu has now even blocked my IP address...).
BTW: Jane Pietkevitsch (sp?), aka 'critter', the sister of Bob P. , once told a similar story, and I accused her of using my story, lol.
EDIT: I know the post by Jeremy is somewhere in the "Amy Wallace" forum of SR, but I seem unable to retrieve it. It´s the post he threatend to´kill me´... I wasn´t much impressed by a death threat of a fat and nearsighted wussy like him, but maybe you can use it to find the post.
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ZVM
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Post subject: Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 20:10 |
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| fledgeling |
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 15:32 Posts: 107 Location: Russia, knock three times
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I think this Jeremy's post seems to be this one
http://sustainedreaction.yuku.com/reply ... ply-105797
Quote from this his post:
Quote: Yeah, yeah. It's really just another variant of the old "fake Carlos" theory, albeit a clever one.
There was a nut on the old Castaneda newsgroup who for many years claimed Castaneda was an imposter. He used completely different arguments. He didn't have any evidence either.
If you turn out to be that person, I may track you down and kill you. (That's a joke, but barely a joke)
EDIT: It seems I finally found this "nut"! lol!
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Blackbeard
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Post subject: Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 20:22 |
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| I don't Teach, but I do drink a lot |
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:50 Posts: 4798 Location: The NeverNeverlands
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Yeah, that's the one!!
Thanks for taking the trouble to find it, ZVM.
Man, I am very much tempted to post some of his pics.
But I think they are too hilarious to post here. Someone might get a heart attack viewing his photos, hahahaha!! Yeah, real warrior meat, jesus.
No wonder CC pissed on them.
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mollymarie
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Post subject: Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 20:27 |
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| mature crow |
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Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:22 Posts: 157 Location: the high desert
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synchrojoe was a regular at Nag net for many years, I dont believe he was "5 pack"
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Blackbeard
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Post subject: Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 20:34 |
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| I don't Teach, but I do drink a lot |
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:50 Posts: 4798 Location: The NeverNeverlands
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Heh, wasn't 5-pack the one who claimed he killed CC in his dreams??
And Wesley Dodds haunting him for ever about that?
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Traveler
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Post subject: twins Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 22:14 |
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| counting crow |
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Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 20:01 Posts: 427 Location: The Midwest
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Abe, there are two sets of twins in the Arana family that I have located. The parents of Carlos himself did not marry legally until exactly one year later, Dec. 25, 1926. I do not know if that has any significance.
There is one woman alive who could clarify the twin of Carlos himself idea, that is Maria Carhuapoma, about five years older than Carlos, who lived with his family from before his birth, and was nanny to both Carlos and Lucia.
I could ask her the next time I'm over there, but it is a difficult question to ask. Lucia herself was four years younger and would not be a source. Maria has two children who would not be witnesses. Like I say hard to ask, but I may introduce it as a half-joke, don't know.
One set of twins has no significance, those are from Lucia's son Carlos. She was married in 1955. Carlos probably born soon after. Maybe has his twins twenty or so years later, maybe 1975. That doesn't work.
But the father of Lucia had a second family, and in that family there were a set of non-identical boy and girl twins. Lucia was born in 1929. I have the name of the boy somewhere. Say he was born in 1931 or 1935, both dates Carlos has mentioned. That son of Lucia's father, her half-brother, could claim that he was, by an indirection factor of two, Carlos' brother. By a further slight leap of imagination he could say he was Carlos twin brother.
Do you think that's worth investigating? By the way I tried to, but Lucia does not know those half connected twins of her father, though she says she ran into the guy by accident in the hospital where she worked as an obstetrician.
I personally do not believe that anyone could have taken over the unique role that Carlos played. Take for example the 25 year relationship he had with Soledad Ruiz, not to mention with other Mexicans indicated in the 2004 book (only in Spanish). Then Florinda Donner, she would not have been fooled, nor do I believe she would have played along with such a ruse as the replacement of Carlos with someone else.
But it is possible, I do not say plausible, that the half-brother of Lucia could have taken on the role that you encountered in Peru. Stranger things have happened, no?
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Blackbeard
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Post subject: Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 22:25 |
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| I don't Teach, but I do drink a lot |
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:50 Posts: 4798 Location: The NeverNeverlands
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Man, Trav, investigate as much as you desire.
Your posts about Peru make me homesick....
I don't have the money to go back, but if I ever... I wanna die there.
Maybe I should have said this before, but my stay in Arequipa was the best time of my life.
EDIT: Forget about Florinda Donner. She is nothing important at all.
Concentrate on doña Soledad Ruiz if you can. Contact the university in Mexico City to find out more about her.
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SSilhouette
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Post subject: Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:59 |
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| shiny object |
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:41 Posts: 658
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Really. Florinda Donner is not important? Any solid reasoning behind that? Or is it just a new prejudice you have against her?
Quote: of a fat and nearsighted wussy like him~ Quote: I wanna die there.
"wussie" "wanna"...
The dutch and their peculiar colloquialisms..
I for one would love to hear more about Florinda. Actually I suspect Abe that you and "jane" and whoever the hell synchrojoe is may have a singular source for your seemingly separate theories. It's funny how the universe brings same theories from seemingly unrelated sources.
If I was Castaneda and wanted to escape the groupies I first would've created a place for them to congregate...a place where they wouldn't be "cool" unless they were accepted, a nexus that would draw them together (and away from me  ) Cleargreen. And if that didn't work, I would fake my own death and go off to live in peace with my closest and most trusted friends.
If proof was found that the man who died was indeed his replacement, I wouldn't experience even a moment of shock. It hasn't escaped my attention that the very nature of his death "so like that of his life" was filled with secrecy and loose ends. No body, no DNA to match to known family members. A tight-lipped coroner. The perfect solution.
Last edited by SSilhouette on Sun May 11, 2008 17:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Blackbeard
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Post subject: Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 12:28 |
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| I don't Teach, but I do drink a lot |
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:50 Posts: 4798 Location: The NeverNeverlands
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You are right Sil: there is no logical reason why I should prefer Ruiz above Donner.
I just blurted it out.
And now I am rereading Travellers post ... lol.... he didn't even ask about them...
It's weird, I could have sworn he asked me which of the two would be more interesting to track down..
???
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SSilhouette
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Post subject: Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 17:44 |
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| shiny object |
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:41 Posts: 658
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But wait a minute. In the other thread weren't you calling the elder Florinda only a figment? Only a character in a book? Why would you "track her down" at all?
Hmmm..
Florinda the elder got a whole chapter devoted to her. Throughout the chapter she keeps abruptly ending her discourse with CC and sending him off to mull over what she's told him. When shattering his shell, she knew he would try to reconstruct it as fast as she made inroads. So she made subtle inroads and stopped before the cracks became noticiable. Then she let them go underground and prepare to do their true work. She had patience down to an artform. That is a quality that I hope to have someday.
But since this is about CC having a twin, we should stick to that..
I'm trying to remember who the medical examiner was that was in charge of the death certificate for "Castaneda" and who cremated the remains. Now if anyone wanted to write an interesting book, investigating those two ends before they themselves disappear...that would be something. Traveler? Is that something you'd be interested in? Maybe your next flight should land in LAX.
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ZVM
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Post subject: Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 20:12 |
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| fledgeling |
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 15:32 Posts: 107 Location: Russia, knock three times
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SSil, Castaneda’s Death Sertificate was signed by Angelica Duenas, MD, who according to R.Jennings, was a member of CC's "inner circle". Besides, if you look at this DS you'll see that CC is mentioned there as a "teacher" (Beverly Hills School District) and his parents (Cesar Arana and Susana Castaneda) both as a Brazilians. The responsibility on remains and other things was taken by Talia Bey (now missing with other 'witches').
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Traveler, thanks for info (again)!
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SSilhouette
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Post subject: Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 16:40 |
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| shiny object |
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:41 Posts: 658
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Really? VERY interesting. Thanks for the update ZVM. The situation surrounding his death couldn't be more fishy.
How old would he be now? Born in 1925 or 1935. Who actually knew him well enough to guess which date was really accurate? The first would make him 83, the second 73. For a toned and deliberate warrior 73 would be like 50.
hmmmmm....
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Anand
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Post subject: Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 21:34 |
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| counting crow |
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 0:09 Posts: 587 Location: Canada
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Thanks for the interesting information, ZVM.
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SSilhouette
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 0:37 |
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| shiny object |
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:41 Posts: 658
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Which funeral crematorium is responsible for the actual burning of the body? I don't think CA law allowed for Talia to have done the cremation herself and I believe there is quite a paper trail for the burning and/or disposal of a body.
Anyone?
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